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mrmagoo

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Jun 10 17 11:03 PM

The fact that Ray is so highly thought of and downright respected by so many tells me that what happened in that elevator in AC was more an anomaly than the norm. I think it's a tragedy he was never given a second chance. 

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#2 [url]

Jun 10 17 11:53 PM

So was Bill Cosby.

Not to say that Ray is Bill Cosby, but to say that I wouldn't rely on former teammates or RU folks inviting him to talk about not making mistakes as suggesting that he's highly respected or the incident was an anomaly. By the way, it would have to be a complete anomaly, not more of an anomaly than the norm, before the discussion of his being actually a good guy even gets started.

Didn't Jeurys Familia just finish doing an anti domestic violence piece for the Mets when he was arrested for domestic violence?

At the time that the (first) video of Ray Rice hit the news, my son was confused. He used to think of him and Brian Leonard as like Batman and Robin. One of his favorite pictures was of Rice and Leonard sitting together on the bench at the Texas Bowl. I used the incident as a lesson: don't make celebrities and sports stars your heroes, because you really know nothing meaningful about them personally. All you know is that they play a sport well, make good music, can act, etc.

I hope Ray continues to make amends and work to prevent future domestic abuse. But I would tell me son, and still do, that you really don't know what kind of guy he is or whether this was a one time thing.

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jred

Posts: 1,594 hatin' and googlin'

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Jun 11 17 11:11 PM

A couple of points I'd like to make on this subject. I liked the willis story about idolizing celebs and totally agree. Next, I will restate that there are parallels between the Ray Rice and Joe Paterno situations regarding the severity of their offenses and the loyalty they each continue to receive. I would never say it was a "tragedy" Ray Rice never got a second chance to play again. The good thing for Ray is he actually has an opportunity to make a huge impact on society after football. He could realistically save the lives of potential perpetrators of domestic violence and their victims. I hope he continues to take this role seriously even after it is determined he has absolutely zero chance of playing football again. If he continues to pursue this new role with the tenacity he had on the field, then he may possibly earn back some of the respect he lost.

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#7 [url]

Jun 12 17 1:38 AM

mrmagoo wrote:
I'm talking about his professional colleagues. Did you read the article?


Yeah, I read it.  And then I wrote that his former teammates and RU folks bringing him in to talk about not making mistakes doesn't make him a good guy.  And it surely doesn't make him highly respected.  The article doesn't say he's highly respected by anybody.  Where does it say that or even reference more than a couple of people?  The "highly respected" point you're making seems absurd.  Because outside of RU and maybe the Ravens, and really only a subset of even those people, he's widely reviled not respected.  Cosby walks into court each day with a new friend from his TV past.  But does that make him OK?  Sure, Rice gets to make amends.  And maybe he could be a good guy who made one mistake (but, for the life of me, I can't imagine being drunk enough to knock my fiancé absolutely cold and then drag her like a sandbag out of an elevator).  But he did what he did, and it was really bad. 

This is one of the reasons I generally don't get behind attacks on other fan bases as different or worse for whatever it is that others say they collectively get wrong.  Fan bases of all teams and schools seem generally the same to me, with the only difference possibly being intensity of their feelings.  They each contain a much higher percentage of people more willing to forgive or not believe something than does population of the rest of the world.   
  

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mrmagoo

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Jun 12 17 10:16 AM

Jred - Within the subset of well-liked sports figures who did something shockingly bad, I think you'd be hard pressed to find a more dissimilar pair than Rice and Paterno. 

First there are the sin(s) themselves - between which there is no comparison. Then there are the post-sinning levels of contrition and taking responsibility - same. Even when you look at the loyalty they continue to receive, well, broken record time. No one ever rioted because Rice wasn't given another chance. In fact even folks who are somewhat sympathetic to him have unanimously (AFAIK) condemned what he did. The comparison just doesn't hold. 

Willis - I'm saying that I do not think Rice is a bad seed, that he is basically a good guy who did a bad thing. (Not Rayburn family bad, but mean and nasty and very very bad nonetheless.) I don't know this to be true, of course, but IMO it does speak volumes when the people who know him way better than you and me, like the folks he played with and for in Baltimore, still respect and like him. If they do not feel that way about him, explain what the Ravens get by being associated with him at all? 

You seem to be hung up on my use of the phrase "highly respected." Well I can parse phrases too.
The Willis: By the way, it would have to be a complete anomaly, not more of an anomaly than the norm, before the discussion of his being actually a good guy even gets started.
"Rice was highly active in community service during his six-year tenure with (Baltimore)." Does that move the anomaly needle for you at all?
The Willis: The article doesn't say he's highly respected by anybody.  Where does it say that or even reference more than a couple of people?  The "highly respected" point you're making seems absurd.  Because outside of RU and maybe the Ravens, and really only a subset of even those people, he's widely reviled not respected.
As Seinfeld might say, who are these people? Who are the people who are actively reviling Ray Rice in June 2017? Do you discuss him with folks at Hopewell cocktail parties? Do they burp up their distaste (pun intended) when discussing him at your local sports bar? 

On the respect side, beyond what I've already mentioned, you have this: "Even after the team paid Rice $1.588 million as part of the settlement for the wrongful termination grievance he filed against the organization, several of the top Ravens decision makers remain friendly with Rice." 

Yeah, sounds like a real bad seed to me.



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mrtreeman

Posts: 4,944 uncertain, guilt-ridden, and basically miserable

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Jun 12 17 3:15 PM

I tend to side with, you don't hit someone you love by accident. Nor only once. He may be done with it now, but I don't believe that was the one and only time.

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jred

Posts: 1,594 hatin' and googlin'

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Jun 12 17 7:57 PM

Somewhere in 'Bizarro World' there was RM Gamoo posting on a PSU message board yesterday "at least Paterno didn't beat up his wife in an Atlantic City elevator."

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georgestreet

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Jun 12 17 8:25 PM

The Ravens' great linebacker Ray Lewis is treated like a hero, their great running back Ray Rice is treated like a villain. Yet both were involved in serious off-field violent behavior. The difference was video.

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rc95

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#13 [url]

Jun 12 17 8:59 PM

In fact even folks who are somewhat sympathetic to him have unanimously (AFAIK) condemned what he did. The comparison just doesn't hold. 

This is a fair statement. Though there are many PSU supporters who take the "Joe was a great man who made one major error in judgment" tack, there are many others who to this day argue that he did absolutely nothing wrong. 

However, the situations are also very different, as Ray's transgression really has nothing to do with RU or even the Ravens. It's a lot easier, emotionally, for an RU fan to condemn Ray, because you can do so without condemning the program or the school. For a PSU fan to condemn Joe requires a much longer look in the mirror.

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mrmagoo

Posts: 11,535 PlexiSchwartz

#15 [url]

Jun 12 17 10:57 PM

jred wrote:
Somewhere in 'Bizarro World' there was RM Gamoo posting on a PSU message board yesterday "at least Paterno didn't beat up his wife in an Atlantic City elevator."
Jred, are you still claiming the two are equivalent? 

RR did what he did in the heat of the moment, while heavily intoxicated. That doesn't make it right, not by a country mile. But it does make it very, very different.

Consider these questions:
  1. How many peoples' lives did Rice ruin by doing what he did? (Answer: 0; 1 if you count his own.)
  2. How many peoples' lives could Rice have kept from being ruined if, at the crucial time, he did the right thing?
Now ask those questions using JoPa instead in place of Rice, and show me how they are in the same ballpark. 

Sincerely, 
Gamoo

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#16 [url]

Jun 13 17 12:36 AM

Magoo, the equivalency argument is a distraction, a straw man. The argument, instead, is that someone who has done something way worse than Rice can still display the very things that you rely on to announce that Rice is a good guy, showing those things to be meaningless. For this argument, you don't need Rice to be the same as Paterno or Sandusky. You need Paterno and Sandusky to be worse. It illustrates that the "speaks volumes" things you rely on from articles are not very meaningful because they are often present in the lives of really bad wrongdoers. I mean, are there other proven domestic violence perpetrators who you don’t know personally but seek to announce as good guys highly thought of and downright respected by so many other than those on teams you root for? At some point, we have to stop treating Rice as someone we root for athletically and acknowledge that he did what he did, we didn’t know or even vaguely suspect that he was capable of it, and we still don’t know that he’s a good guy. Otherwise, we sound just like fan boys.

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rc95

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#17 [url]

Jun 13 17 12:58 AM

At some point, we have to stop treating Rice as someone we root for athletically and acknowledge that he did what he did, we didn’t know or even vaguely suspect that he was capable of it, and we still don’t know that he’s a good guy. Otherwise, we sound just like fan boys.

This is the crux of what I was saying. Emotionally, it's probably a lot easier for you or me to do that, because we partition off Ray from our overall sports advocacy and don't let him in anymore. Whereas with Joe, that acknowledgment involves some serious rethinking of your entire sports fandom (and possibly a large part of your overall identity as a person). You can be anti-Ray and still be a strong Scarlet Knights supporter. You can't be anti-Joe and still be a strong Nittany Lions supporter.

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rufleche

Posts: 4,612 Mr Stabby

#18 [url]

Jun 13 17 2:15 AM

"You can't be anti-Joe and still be a strong Nittany Lions supporter."
I'm not sure this is true. Paterno turned a blind eye and chose not to see that he had a monster, but the legacy he built remains (wins, graduating students, donating for a library) even if it is marred by this serious failing. But if you graduated from PSU, you should be able to be proud of the school you attended, the sports teams (students who competed, largely without scandal) and the overall legacy of PSU football. Recognizing that Joe aided and abetted, makes Joe a failure, not the school. You can be a proud PSU alumnus and NOT want his statue to be replaced. There is no cognitive dissonance needed.

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rc95

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#19 [url]

Jun 13 17 3:12 AM

Fleche, I disagree with that on a couple of levels. But let's start with the easy one.


I don't think you can be a strong supporter of the football program without some cognitive dissonance. Everything Joe did was about keeping that football program a national power. You can't take pride in where they are now unless you basically ignore that they more or less got away with covering up a serial child molester's actions. So I wouldn't do this, but I think you can at least make a case for separating the football program from the school as a whole. You can be a proud alum, but I don't see how you could condemn Joe and still be a proud football booster.

But I wouldn't even separate the two, and this is the tougher putt. To me, PSU's entire culture is wrapped around the legend of St. Paterno. IMO, that's how the frat hazing death happened, and why in its aftermath, many students openly flouted increased regulations. The culture there isn't about doing the right thing, but about the way they want to do things -- and doing as little as possible to change. In the wake of the death, PSU put in new regulations, but they did what was minimally adequate, and as I said, many students there were still pissed off about it. What they really want there is to be left to their own devices. And until someone in leadership stands up and says "enough," that will always be PSU's culture. 

So to be a proud PSU alum is to be proud of that culture. And that culture, stoked by Paterno and all of his fans for decades, is fucking rotten to the core. 

You don't have to draw any conclusions about RU to condemn what Ray did. That makes it a lot easier, emotionally.


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georgestreet

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Jun 13 17 3:58 AM

" Though there are many PSU supporters who take the "Joe was a great man who made one major error in judgment" tack, there are many others who to this day argue that he did absolutely nothing wrong. "

Then they ran out and voted for Donald.

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