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scoopdave

Posts: 3,131 Oregon State

#21 [url]

Jun 13 17 4:14 AM

Ray Rice

My college roommate and starting Rutgers fullback is married to a woman who headed creative for one of the largest ad agencies. For over 10 years she founded and has run Show Your Soft Side, an anti animal abuse campaign, she started with tattooed MMF guys as spokespersons, and now has all the major Baltimore sports figures involved, and has expanded to other cities.

I reached out to her about Ray Rice, and here are her comments :


" most people we know think Ray Rice got a raw deal in terms of punishment and how he was ostracized from the sport. Ironically, so do I and that's coming from someone who spent years doing communications for a domestic violence shelter. What he did was hideous and certainly deserved punishment, but even I feel sorry for him over the way the Ravens, Rutgers and I think even his high school promptly dumped him. That said, I've met him a few times and didn't find him to be the kind of guy I'd warm up to......very full of himself although I'm betting that opinion has probably changed in the past few years."

Last Edited By: scoopdave Jun 13 17 4:18 AM. Edited 1 time.

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spanky

Posts: 2,277 TBandfago

#22 [url]

Jun 13 17 4:50 AM

georgestreet wrote:
The Ravens' great linebacker Ray Lewis is treated like a hero, their great running back Ray Rice is treated like a villain. Yet both were involved in serious off-field violent behavior. The difference was video.

Well, one got away with murder. The other.....

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mrtreeman

Posts: 4,944 uncertain, guilt-ridden, and basically miserable

#23 [url]

Jun 13 17 5:14 AM

Let's not go there George, but yes, Pennsylvania votes republican.. let's leave it that. Good points all around. I'd venture further and state that the psu culture that rc95 describes isn't unique to psu, nor universities. The bullshit alpha male fraternity culture is pervasive in the us. Hopefully it's dying.

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elgreco

Posts: 6,585 The Magic Dragon

#24 [url]

Jun 13 17 11:36 AM

georgestreet wrote:
" Though there are many PSU supporters who take the "Joe was a great man who made one major error in judgment" tack, there are many others who to this day argue that he did absolutely nothing wrong. "

Then they ran out and voted for Donald.


See, you just disproved your own point.

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mrmagoo

Posts: 11,535 PlexiSchwartz

#25 [url]

Jun 13 17 10:35 PM

willisneverrana43 wrote:
Magoo, the equivalency argument is a distraction, a straw man.  
But I didn't introduce that argument - I'm the one saying it holds no agua.
The argument, instead, is that someone who has done something way worse than Rice can still display the very things that you rely on to announce that Rice is a good guy, showing those things to be meaningless. 
I understand your point and agree that there's no way to know for sure, and I've said so in this thread. But we part ways where you say it's meaningless while I say it is evidence that I happen to consider meaningful despite the lack of certainty. 

I don't form this opinion in a vacuum however - I am also considering Rice's track record. He had no incidents of violence against women in high school or at Rutgers, as far as we know - not even Alfred Peterson pinching ass at a party type stuff. He was a good representative of the NFL (recognized for community service) up until the incident. And he has kept his nose clean since, which can't be easy to do if you're an habitual offender like Tree and others think. 

Maybe the incident in the elevator wasn't an isolated one for Rice. But frankly that opinion is based more on speculation than is mine.

***

As for my leaning more towards the positive because I'm a fan, I admit that's true, but not to the point that I'm blinded by it either. Put it this way: if it had been Kenny Britt in that elevator, we're not having this discussion. 



  

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mrmagoo

Posts: 11,535 PlexiSchwartz

#26 [url]

Jun 13 17 10:41 PM

scoopdave wrote:
Ray Rice

My college roommate and starting Rutgers fullback is married to a woman who headed creative for one of the largest ad agencies. For over 10 years she founded and has run Show Your Soft Side, an anti animal abuse campaign, she started with tattooed MMF guys as spokespersons, and now has all the major Baltimore sports figures involved, and has expanded to other cities.

I reached out to her about Ray Rice, and here are her comments :


" most people we know think Ray Rice got a raw deal in terms of punishment and how he was ostracized from the sport. Ironically, so do I and that's coming from someone who spent years doing communications for a domestic violence shelter. What he did was hideous and certainly deserved punishment, but even I feel sorry for him over the way the Ravens, Rutgers and I think even his high school promptly dumped him. That said, I've met him a few times and didn't find him to be the kind of guy I'd warm up to......very full of himself although I'm betting that opinion has probably changed in the past few years."
Good job Scoop. 

The comment by your friend's wife (highlighted above) should be game, set, match. Not that it will be.

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#27 [url]

Jun 13 17 11:53 PM

mrmagoo wrote:
 . . . The comment by your friend's wife (highlighted above) should be game, set, match. Not that it will be.

Enthusiastically glomming onto and elevating opinions of others with RU connections, or here RU and Baltimore connections, is precisely the type of fanboy opinion making I'm highlighting.  Frankly, the opinion isn't even what you want it to be.  It wasn't that Rice was a good guy (nor were any in the article).  It was that he was over punished.  Maybe.  But that's a different point.  Yet, for you, it's close enough to declare "match" on Rice being a good guy, well thought of, highly regarded, or whatever.  That isn't positive thinking.  That's fanboy thinking.  It's looking for something, anything to reach the opinion you already wanted to reach.  This isn't rooting; it's real life and a serious matter.  For the life of me, I can't imagine ever reaching a serious opinion about someone's character from the far reaches of the internet when all I really know about his personal life is that he knocked a woman cold, dragged her, and that some football teams now ask him to give a "scared straight" talk to their rookies--oh, and he played for my team.  I remain amazed at what sports rooting can do to shape people's opinions. 

Maybe Rice was overpunished.  Maybe he deserved a second chance.  But if so that ain't the tragedy--even if he hadn't walked away with a $1.58mm settlement.

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elgreco

Posts: 6,585 The Magic Dragon

#28 [url]

Jun 14 17 12:24 AM

If you are a coach of young people, all sins are forgiven. I'm not talking about PSU...

Mike Rice
Kevin Wilson
Brady Hoke
Mike Leach
Jim Leavitt

Mistreated their players - someone didnt care and hired them to oversee young men. No one should be surprised about PSU.

https://www.nj.com/v1/articles/20291344/is_disgraced_ex-rutgers_coach_mike_rice_about_to_l.amp

https://www.landof10.com/ohio-state/new-ohio-state-coach-kevin-wilson-addresses-departure-indiana-first-time

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/michigan-coach-faces-uproar-over-concussed-qb/

http://abcnews.go.com/US/texas-tech-university-football-coach-mike-leach-fired/story?id=9449169

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/sports/usf-jim-leavitt-latest-coach-fired-resign-over-allegations-player-abuse/Oo5PXz949njF9aBYJfF62K/

Last Edited By: elgreco Jun 14 17 12:26 AM. Edited 1 time.

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scoopdave

Posts: 3,131 Oregon State

#29 [url]

Jun 14 17 12:57 AM

Willis, you are entitled to your opinion. But you are expressing it by denigrating someone with expertise in animal and domestic violence abuse, and knows the person in question. And I do get your point, no matter how obtuse it may be. Maybe I'm just Jonesing for Mac.

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#30 [url]

Jun 14 17 1:54 AM

Scoop, I don't think you do.

I'm sure you would admit that your friend, wife of a former RU football player, isn't the only domestic violence expert with an opinion on Rice and that there are experts with different opinions. But that isn't really the focus of my discussion. The focus of my discussion is the selection bias of sports fans in reaching insufficiently informed "good guy" opinions of people they don't know with personal backgrounds they don't know at all other than that they are associated with the team the fan roots for. One can easily find opinions about Rice that are different from your friend's. But that doesn't matter. It's already game, set and match in the mind of at least one RU fan.

That sort of thing never ceases to amaze me.

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mrtreeman

Posts: 4,944 uncertain, guilt-ridden, and basically miserable

#31 [url]

Jun 14 17 2:43 AM

I'm with willis on this. The defense on this is that it's more likely plausible it was a one time error? This sounds like the drunk driver who claims it was their only time they've ever done it. It's way more likely that this was the first time he got caught. If there was no video, it wouldn't even be that.

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rc95

Posts: 22,880 My kingdon for a wheel route (since I left mine at home)
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#32 [url]

Jun 14 17 4:22 AM

willis and a few others (I think) have made this point a couple of times, and I think it's worth highlighting: You really have no idea what sports stars (or celebrities, or politicians) are really like. Hell, you really have no idea what most of the people on this board are really like. I mean, would you realistically even know if your next-door neighbor beats his wife? Probably not.



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mrmagoo

Posts: 11,535 PlexiSchwartz

#36 [url]

Jun 14 17 7:43 AM

willisneverrana43 wrote:
mrmagoo wrote:
 . . . The comment by your friend's wife (highlighted above) should be game, set, match. Not that it will be.

Enthusiastically glomming onto and elevating opinions of others with RU connections, or here RU and Baltimore connections, is precisely the type of fanboy opinion making I'm highlighting.  Frankly, the opinion isn't even what you want it to be.  It wasn't that Rice was a good guy (nor were any in the article).  It was that he was over punished.  Maybe.  But that's a different point.  Yet, for you, it's close enough to declare "match" on Rice being a good guy, well thought of, highly regarded, or whatever.  That isn't positive thinking.  That's fanboy thinking.  It's looking for something, anything to reach the opinion you already wanted to reach.  This isn't rooting; it's real life and a serious matter.  For the life of me, I can't imagine ever reaching a serious opinion about someone's character from the far reaches of the internet when all I really know about his personal life is that he knocked a woman cold, dragged her, and that some football teams now ask him to give a "scared straight" talk to their rookies--oh, and he played for my team.  I remain amazed at what sports rooting can do to shape people's opinions. 

Maybe Rice was overpunished.  Maybe he deserved a second chance.  But if so that ain't the tragedy--even if he hadn't walked away with a $1.58mm settlement.

Having your livelihood taken from you for one horrific incident can be considered tragic, even if it's a tragedy of one's own making. 

As for your post, three things do not surprise me: 
1) That you are still hung up on some modifiers I used in my initial post,ignoring all the points I've made since; 
2) That you twist things to support your point (to wit, I never "formed a serious opinion about Rice's character based on the far reaches of the internet" - I simply said that the way certain people who know him treat him and speak about him indicates to me he likely is a basically decent guy; I also qualified that by admitting that I could be wrong, that there's no way to know for sure, etc. ... but you conveniently ignore that, instead saying my opinion is absurd and dismissing me as a fanboy);
3) That you would be arrogant enough to believe that you are better suited to form an opinion on Ray's punishment than someone who actually knows him (and isn't even fond of him), has worked with him, and happens to work with victims of domestic violence to boot. And you base that opinion strictly on what you saw in that video - not a whiff of anything else. BTW this lady saw the video too, but in your mind that's easily washed away in hers b/c she has ties to Rutgers and to the Ravens. Wow.

It's a beautiful night and I'm headed out to enjoy it. Peace out.

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#37 [url]

Jun 14 17 8:55 AM

It's odd that your opinion is based so much now on something you didn't even know when you formed it. It's called results oriented thinking. And it is a good night indeed. I just finished using a set of golf clubs to enjoy it.

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scoopdave

Posts: 3,131 Oregon State

#38 [url]

Jun 14 17 7:44 PM

RC wrote:

"You really have no idea what sports stars (or celebrities, or politicians) are really like."

This was my main point. Sande ( her real name) knows scores of Baltimore Professional atheletes, they are active in Show Your Soft Side . She successfully sued the Baltimore Mayor who tried a power play to take over her rights to her campaign. She suffers no fool.

And, oh by the way, she's a Woman. Married to a Rutgers football player.

Arguably more qualified on this subject than any of us. But it's just her opinion, and I believe effectively added to this debate.

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rc95

Posts: 22,880 My kingdon for a wheel route (since I left mine at home)
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#40 [url]

Jun 14 17 9:10 PM

Scoop,


I would say your friend's having met Ray a few times is more or less incidental to her analysis of the situation.

I will say that her personal impression of Ray jibes with what I've heard elsewhere, from people who know him better than she does.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

The one counter I have to willis, and I'm not even sure if it's a counter, is this: Ray has done basically everything possible to demonstrate remorse and make up for what he's done. If at this point you still don't believe he deserves a shot (setting aside his ability to play), you simply don't believe his particular crime is forgivable -- ever. That's a valid position to take, but if it's what you believe, all the arguing about whether he's a good guy is superfluous. 

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